New episode NIOD Rewind podcast
Published on 9 April 2026
In the NIOD Rewind podcast on war & violence, Anne van Mourik interviews scholars about the history of mass violence, genocide and war. A new episode appears every few weeks. What are the main issues and new insights in the field of war and violence studies? How does the history of violence relate to the current debate, events, and phenomena? The NIOD Rewind podcast looks into innovative research, interesting methods, and new publications. All episodes are available to listen via our Soundcloud account or in your favourite podcast platform
Episode 47 - Perpetrators of Mass Atrocities: Terribly and Terrifyingly Normal?
Are perpetrators of mass atrocities really “monsters”? Or are they, in fact, normal people, like us? Anne van Mourik and Lucy Gaynor interview Professor Alette Smeulers (University Groningen), who argues that those who commit extreme violence are often far more ordinary than we would like to believe.
We discuss Alette’s research - which looks at many cases including the Holocaust, the Rwandan Genocide, Apartheid in South Africa, and military dictatorships in South America - and ask: what patterns emerge? Do different contexts produce different types of perpetrators, such as “fanatics”, “masterminds”, and “followers"? Does social media, in our modern age, act as a kind of fanatic infrastructure, creating spaces like the manosphere, or even enabling perpetration? What is the role of “strongmen” like Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, and Benjamin Netanyahu, in the perpetration of atrocities? How do other leaders, like NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte, play a part in normalising violence?
Anne van Mourik, Lucy Gaynor and Alette Smeulers